tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5621024.post111290063365252337..comments2024-01-09T03:52:43.027-08:00Comments on The Abstract Factory: In which Jonah Goldberg performs feats that bend the laws of space and timeKeunwoo Lee (Cog)http://www.blogger.com/profile/05577836853536292311noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5621024.post-91644699648806668552007-04-04T13:15:00.000-07:002007-04-04T13:15:00.000-07:00I am an EE, with 17 years in telecommunications. ...I am an EE, with 17 years in telecommunications. My experience would suggest the vast majority of people in the industry would self-identify as conservative. Obviously there are nutcases on both ends of the spectrum, but isn't it obvious that the people who are high achievers both in industry and academia are somewhat imbalanced in life skills? In other words, trying to say that 'professors are smarter, and liberal, thus the liberal path is the correct path', is a poor argument, just as it is to say that professors are losers and thus liberal. Anyone here have a real argument?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5621024.post-1113175676673860722005-04-10T16:27:00.000-07:002005-04-10T16:27:00.000-07:00A fwe weeks back Goldberg had a hilarious post, co...<I>A fwe weeks back Goldberg had a hilarious post, complete with misspellings, about the importance of an arabidopsis study. He thinks that the discovery of alternate methods of inheritance (via RNA or mitochondria) is de facto proof of intelligent design.</I><BR/><BR/>Somebody needs to whack that man upside the head with the Big Book of Endosymbiosis.Natashahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09886122544278532691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5621024.post-1113111088588378572005-04-09T22:31:00.000-07:002005-04-09T22:31:00.000-07:00Just as another (anecdotal) data point, I'm a grad...Just as another (anecdotal) data point, I'm a grad student in computer science at the University of Utah - yes, that's right, in the reddest of the red states. I am also a pretty flaming liberal (blame it on my parents).<BR/><BR/>Whenever I would talk to my parents on the phone and we would discuss the latest Bush administration idiocy, my dad would ask if there was anyone at school I could discuss politics with. I kept reassuring him that, in fact, most people I knew in the department had a liberal or at least libertarian bent so , although politics wouldn't come up a lot, people would generally be in agreement and certainly not of the Jonah-type school of thought.<BR/><BR/>Now, it is also true that most grad students and faculty are not originally from the state (maybe about 10%), and of those 10%, a majority probably lean right. I'm not sure what this means (do all the locals want to teach at BYU? is Utah just that good at attracting talent?), but the environment definitely feels liberal.<BR/><BR/>The undergrads are a different story, but I'm happy I was able to convince my class why unverified electronic voting (no paper trail) is a bad thing.DavĂdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15497404598558707761noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5621024.post-1113105778553467292005-04-09T21:02:00.000-07:002005-04-09T21:02:00.000-07:00In which Jonah Goldberg performs feats that bend t...<I>In which Jonah Goldberg performs feats that bend the laws of space and time</I><BR/><BR/>You didn't say it, so I will: Jonah and his ilk are black holes of ignorance.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5621024.post-1113095034818267412005-04-09T18:03:00.000-07:002005-04-09T18:03:00.000-07:00Electrical Engineer in the house ... Goldberg is a...Electrical Engineer in the house ... Goldberg is an idiot. Other than cold warriors I worked with in the defense industry back in the day, I have trouble indentifying one conservative EE among my collegues. There's one small "l" libertarian, but the rest range from liberal to leftist.<BR/><BR/>And I'm at a venture funded startup, so, yes there are liberal capitalists.<BR/><BR/>The premier trade magazine in the electrical engineering business, EE Times, has been known to run articles about government technology policy that could be considered "liberal", since they question the divine right of <A HREF="http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=160401638" REL="nofollow">government</A> <A HREF="http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20030522S0050" REL="nofollow">power</A>.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5621024.post-1113075739762959242005-04-09T12:42:00.000-07:002005-04-09T12:42:00.000-07:00I argue with the term "wildly successful," unless ...I argue with the term "wildly successful," unless the blogger means "well paid for not firing a single neuron." In terms of convincing other people about the superiority of their arguments, they are only successful with right-wing true believers, who are like the Barbara Cartland fans of politics. <BR/>Remember her? She was the romance writer who basically wrote the same story over 200 times--virginal blonde wins over rougue and hold out until wedding night. She had thousands of fans because, not in spite of, the fact that she never once wrote an original story.<BR/>The reason Goldberg, Limbaugh, Savage, et al can make a ton of money is that there are conservatives who want to read the same world view over and over. Maybe that's what this blogger means by "wildly successful?" Also that the mainstream press is whipped by them all the time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5621024.post-1113072884843593482005-04-09T11:54:00.000-07:002005-04-09T11:54:00.000-07:00The data would be mildly interesting here. I stro...The data would be mildly interesting here. I strongly suspect that career is much less of a predictor for ideological bent than is geography. That is, before I looked at it, I predicted that our author lives in a blue state -- and sure enough, UW is in Seattle, which votes overwhelmingly Democratic. I am a CS professional (sadly, I had to settle for a private sector six-figure income instead of the greater intellectual rewards of academia), and it has been my experience that the conservatives in this profession largely come from red states.<BR/><BR/>It has also been my observation that most of the top engineering schools are in blue states, and that most computer scientists -- even in the private sector, Jonah -- are strongly liberal. I'm private sector, at the top of my field, and certainly very well compensated for my work, none of which in any way dissuades me from being a bleeds-blue, canvassing door-to-door in Florida liberal.<BR/><BR/>But then, I've only worked in Michigan, California, and Washington, so again my data are suspect. I can't imagine this data would be all that difficult to collect, if anyone really cared. But while there is no comprehensive data emerging on this critical issue, the anecdotal evidence from the field seems to contradict Jonah Goldberg's thesis. <BR/><BR/>Shocked. Shocked, I say.donhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07651412409488080443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5621024.post-1113062785004521762005-04-09T09:06:00.000-07:002005-04-09T09:06:00.000-07:00Where does the old adage, 'Those who can't, teach....Where does the old adage, 'Those who can't, teach.' fit in with all of this?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5621024.post-1113051057159095882005-04-09T05:50:00.000-07:002005-04-09T05:50:00.000-07:00Hey, easy on the border collies folks. Mine knows...Hey, easy on the border collies folks. Mine knows about 100 words and can tell shite from shinola.<BR/><BR/>Whups, caught me in a whopper ... he's really an Aussie.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5621024.post-1113036966990419942005-04-09T01:56:00.000-07:002005-04-09T01:56:00.000-07:00When I was a younger woman, I was told -- several ...When I was a younger woman, I was told -- several times over a period of years -- that anonymous signers were not really all that brave, but they really were quite good at putting forth b.s and bile, and filling in boxes on comment forms.<BR/><BR/>The man who told me this so many times was an anonymous signer and knew quite a few anonymous signers, having worked for an invisible ink factory for some years.<BR/><BR/>I have no reason to disbelieve him.resigned idealisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01558888389267842246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5621024.post-1113031953871194572005-04-09T00:32:00.000-07:002005-04-09T00:32:00.000-07:00When I was a younger man I was told--several times...When I was a younger man I was told--several times over a period of months--that engineers were not really all that bright, but they really were quite good at looking up things in charts and tables, and filling in boxes on forms.<BR/><BR/>The man who told me this so many times was an engineer and knew quite a few engineers, having worked at an Air Force base for some years. <BR/><BR/>I have no reason to disbelieve him.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5621024.post-1113026681168197972005-04-08T23:04:00.000-07:002005-04-08T23:04:00.000-07:00I'm an engineer with a degree in Math and an MSc. ...I'm an engineer with a degree in Math and an MSc. degree in Engineering. I've worked as a mid-level manager in the Oil industry and I've held a senior executive position in an Internet company. (I've also worked as a unionized grave digger). <BR/><BR/>I'm always surprised by people who state, as though it were a truism, that businesses are more efficient than any other system known to man. I've seen more corruption, waste, nepotism, and sloth in the oil biz and the internet than I ever saw as a grave digger. If you want examples I have a gross of them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5621024.post-1113023754377433112005-04-08T22:15:00.000-07:002005-04-08T22:15:00.000-07:00Nicely doneNicely doneAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5621024.post-1113016719206031012005-04-08T20:18:00.000-07:002005-04-08T20:18:00.000-07:00This echoes one comment from above, but as a docto...This echoes one comment from above, but as a doctoral student at a business school, I would say the political valence here definitely skews leftward. It would just be a massive career liability for professors to avoid nuance in their arguments or to fail to periodically test their assumptions about how the world works.<BR/><BR/>But (contra that National Review asshat) I'm picking a non-academic career path largely for the lifestyle: more pay for fewer hours, plus I get a freer hand in picking where I'm going to live. But to be honest, it's also about risk aversion: While I have a healthy enough ego, I'm not sure if I've got the goods to come up with three to four pathbreaking ideas (over 7-10 top-tier journal articles) to earn tenure at a decent school. Often, it's the savvy risk-takers who survive and thrive business academia.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5621024.post-1113013436020087742005-04-08T19:23:00.000-07:002005-04-08T19:23:00.000-07:00Not a statistical survey, but most people I know (...Not a statistical survey, but most people I know (a self-selected set) in CS academia, research, and startups, are liberal, those that aren't are libertarian.<BR/><BR/>If you consider an engineering approach to problems (what are my metrics, how am I meeting them) or the startup approach to a problem (what is my business plan, have I satisfied my investors) the Bush administration is a failure. Jobs flat across four years, market flat, deficits up, debt up, abortions up, Iraqi death rate no better than under Saddam (but we've privatized their hellhole, that's got to count for something, right?), bin Ladin still at large, anthrax poisoner still unidentified, A.Q. Khan still loose in Pakistan, North Korea developing nukes and missiles, strong possibility of an Iran-friendly "democratic" Iraqi government, unfounded mandates to meet ridiculous educational goals -- the <I>only</I> thing that this government has actually delivered (even to the fundies) is tax cuts, and those we clearly cannot afford in the long run.<BR/><BR/>And the conduct of the Iraq war; holy crap, what a disaster that has been in the cost/benefit department. We cannot even certainly say that the Iraqis are "better off"; it's entirely possible that they were better off under Saddam and sanctions. We can hope that things will improve, but we're still at the "hope" stage.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5621024.post-1113005165622603882005-04-08T17:06:00.000-07:002005-04-08T17:06:00.000-07:00Followed the link from Atrios. Civil Engineer here...Followed the link from Atrios. Civil Engineer here.. don't know if my prof's were liberal or conservative, but I will say they some of the brightest people I have ever met.<BR/><BR/>If I were you I'd look into a new career path. you have a way with words... impressive<BR/><BR/>NancyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5621024.post-1113004859008223092005-04-08T17:00:00.000-07:002005-04-08T17:00:00.000-07:00I teach and have worked in industry. Guggenheim, A...I teach and have worked in industry. Guggenheim, Associate Dean, Founding heads, Managing Director in family. Can't think of one who measures success in terms of income. Money's nice, but only part of the package.I concur with the general remarks, but would like to add that Goldberg and company do what they do for a living, not out of any sense of conviction. Pay scales vary wildly. Fox talking heads earn seven figures or more. Goldberg will be lucky to crack six. They're all angling for an audience to increase income. Hence, the pandering to bigotry. No sensible person can take anything they say or write seriously. I'm not sure Jonah knows how to learn more. He deserves sympathy as much as contempt. It can't be easy trying to sound clever while understanding so little.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5621024.post-1112998715759108972005-04-08T15:18:00.000-07:002005-04-08T15:18:00.000-07:00I have wondered for years why academics seem more ...I have wondered for years why academics seem more inclined to be left-wing than usual. It can't be the "no experience of real life" thing that they are often accused of; many, particularly in industry-related fields (as opposed to the usual stereotype of "academic" meaning "obscure post-modernism and research into fifth-century drinking songs") have plenty, and it doesn't seem to make any difference.<BR/><BR/>I've seen it in professional scientists, mathematicians etc too, and, biased and awful as it may sound, the only connection I can see is that these people are paid to think, they enjoy thinking, and they've got used to thinking about everything, even politics.<BR/><BR/>I'm not familiar with Jonah Goldberg but reading some of his work, it seems quite apparent that thinking is not what he's paid to do.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5621024.post-1112997445590251432005-04-08T14:57:00.000-07:002005-04-08T14:57:00.000-07:00I think there are a number of small-c conservative...I think there are a number of small-c conservatives in science faculties, mainly becuase the small-c view protect s their salaries and consulting fees. Classic old-fashioned REpublican types with a libertarian bent. But there are not large-C Jonah-type Conservatives because they can see that the wingnuts aren't wearing any clothes on teh religio-social issues. <BR/><BR/>An average faculty position in the biological sciences attracts ca. 400 applications from talented postdocs--people who have spent years earning their PhDs then MORE years doing their postdocs. Assistant professors are getting older becuase it takes longer to be competitive for these positions. My many friends in industry say they don't want academic science becuase they want a job, not an all-absorbing life. <BR/><BR/> I don't think that the Big-C conservatives "get it" because they like having it easy. And not being intellectually oriented, they also don't understand that ambitions can be paid in currency other than greenbacks.<BR/><BR/>THe other thing is that no group is more part of the REality Based community than scientists, and no group more opposed than the Big-C Conservatives.<BR/><BR/>--science ProfAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5621024.post-1112996737992584962005-04-08T14:45:00.000-07:002005-04-08T14:45:00.000-07:00yoo librul compooter sientists gonna appreciate Ge...yoo librul compooter sientists gonna appreciate George Bush when yoo lern how he has made DARPA stop wasting its money on dumm bloo sky projects (like that interweb thinggy) so that it cab focus on delivrabuls luke heer http://tinyurl.com/3kjwl.<BR/><BR/>That is, if CS faculty are liberal now, what are they going to be when they have had a few more years of slashing DARPA funding for university research and being told that their assistents have to be US citizens.<BR/><BR/>By the way, do you know how to hack a Deibold electric vote counting machine ? Don't do it, but, you know, an occasional anonymous hint that maybe they don't really want to mess with computer scientists might be a good idea.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14455788499385673507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5621024.post-1112993875357276972005-04-08T13:57:00.000-07:002005-04-08T13:57:00.000-07:00It seems, to me, fairly simple. Most folks who un...It seems, to me, fairly simple. Most folks who understand the basics of logic and the fundamental science that underlies all the various fields (or physics, 'cause it's all physics in the end anyway, right?) can't stand to read the drivel Jonah writes for longer than two seconds. He and the rest of his bunch of whackos can't think straight. They sound just like the folks who say things like "NASA never made it to the moon!" and "there are alien spacecraft at Area 51!". They're conspiracy theorists hiding behind a thin veneer of political whitewash, unable to argue their way out of a one-way street. It's the opposite of the beauty of, say, a well-constructed logical argument. I've found that among my coworkers (I'm a computer programmer as well) who tend to be more conservative there's a lack of understanding of the basic tenants of science and physics. Of course, this isn't always true (I know several highly-educated folks who cling tightly to conservative ideas, although they employ much nicer arguments to defend their beliefs). Nevertheless, for Jonah and his ilk whose writing stinks to high heaven and whose mental arguing capability is worse, there is nothing there to attract an active and creative mind. Ditto Fox, ditto Michelle Malkin, ditto Bill O'Riley, ditto Ann Coulter...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5621024.post-1112991163271543062005-04-08T13:12:00.000-07:002005-04-08T13:12:00.000-07:00As one of the avowed liberals in my Electrical Eng...As one of the avowed liberals in my Electrical Engineering department 40 years ago when I graduated (Teaching staff was 3 or 4 wingnuts, 3 or 4 liberals, and the rest--15 or so--indeterminate) I have had a long career in Industry, sometimes being surrounded by wingnuts but usually by apolitical people, and making Industry standard salary (now over $100K which Reagan/Bush inflation has made worth not much more than the $7K I started out with 40 years ago. I work for a company that has an Engineer's union (although my work group didn't join the union until 10 years ago) as well as a strong (but weakening as the Bushees erode union power) general employees union. The company is right, the employees are slightly left, and the company is still here manufacturing export products.<BR/>I don't know what the makeup of my old EE Department is 40 years later, but my university was in a red state that is now turning blue (or at least purple) so it could be that there are blues in the University now like there were 40 years ago.<BR/>All of which I guess doesn't prove all that much.Earwickerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02182707542567590904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5621024.post-1112990720060306362005-04-08T13:05:00.001-07:002005-04-08T13:05:00.001-07:00Since I've got an advanced degree in the physical ...Since I've got an advanced degree in the physical sciences (only an MS - didn't have ambition enough to work the long hours to get the doctorate, much less a faculty job in academia. Can't complain about the private sector wages though.), and a liberal/progressive inclination, I'll pile on and chip in my 2 cents.<BR/><BR/>Frankly, I'm a bit surprised to find that there are more liberal vs. conservatives in academic positions in science and engineering (since these fields are traditionally old boys clubs). But I guess this shows that liberalism tends to attact anyone with training in and talent for both factual analysis and critical thinking. In short, liberal ideas are prefered by those who understand and thrive in the reality-based universe.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5621024.post-1112990702854927852005-04-08T13:05:00.000-07:002005-04-08T13:05:00.000-07:00I completely agree with your conclusion. The probl...I completely agree with your conclusion. The problem is that if they aren't punished for spouting lies, then they have absolutely no incentive to stop telling lies. <BR/>I think it's time some lawyers at a progressive institution comb through conservative publications to find opportunities to sue them for libel. I know that libel laws are pretty conservative in the U.S., but I'm sure we could still take down one or two pundits, which might set an example.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04856912842512902503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5621024.post-1112989856013542832005-04-08T12:50:00.000-07:002005-04-08T12:50:00.000-07:00The fact is, Goldberg doesn't care in the least wh...<I>The fact is, Goldberg doesn't care in the least whether what he says is true and well-reasoned, and neither do his backers and readers.</I><BR/><BR/>This is <B>the</B> definition of "bullshit" as elucidated by Harry G. Frankfurt in his monograph.<BR/><I>Bullshitting, as he notes, is not exactly lying, and bullshit remains bullshit whether it's true or false. The difference lies in the bullshitter's complete disregard for whether what he's saying corresponds to facts in the physical world: he "does not reject the authority of the truth, as the liar does, and oppose himself to it. He pays no attention to it at all. By virtue of this, bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are."</I>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com